The Writer

Friday, April 20, 2007

House of Representatives, Subcomittee on Oversight, Investigation adn Emergency Management

FLOOD WATER RESCUE


Wednesday, February 16, 2000

House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Oversight, Investigations and Emergency Management, Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Washington, D.C.


The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:07 p.m., in Room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tillie K. Fowler [chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.

Mrs. FOWLER. The subcommittee will come to order. We have got some votes that are scheduled again in about 15, 20 minutes, and those will go on for two votes. We thought we would go ahead and start the hearing and we will have to recess when we have those two votes and start back up. But in the interest of time, we wanted to go ahead and begin and we are waiting on two members, but I thought I would go ahead and give my opening statement. Today's hearing examines a proposal for augmenting the Federal Emergency Management Agency's existing Urban Search and Rescue Program to include water rescue expertise. Flooding is the single greatest recurring natural disaster in the United States causing nearly 100 deaths each year. Approximately 10 percent of these deaths are public safety personnel attempting water rescues. We hear statistics like this all the time, but these statistics are not just numbers. They are people like you or me who get trapped in an overwhelming situation. I can think of no better way to get this point across than to introduce you to one of these victims, Adam Bischoff. And if they would roll the tape. This is a tape about Adam. [Video tape played.]

Mrs. FOWLER. We lose 100 Adam Bischoffs every year to floods. Representatives Brian Bilbray and Connie Morella have put forward a proposal that I think will save lives. I will let them explain it, and we will hear from experts regarding their idea. But first I would like to recognize our ranking member, Mr. Traficant, for his opening statement. Page 10 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

Mr. TRAFICANT. I want to thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I see the bells are ringing. I want to first start off by saying that I didn't realize you were retiring after this term and would not be back with us. I want to say that that will be a loss to not only this Congress, but to the country, and we certainly are going to miss you.

Probably Congresswoman Morella and Congressman Bilbray did not come over because they heard there would be this vote. I will not belabor my statement. I reiterate the fact that we talk about a lot of exciting disasters. We hate disasters, but there are some that get a lot more headlines. Floods seem not to get the type of disastrous headlines as others, although there are more deaths and tragedies many times attached if we really would look into them.

But most of all, I want to comment a little bit about FEMA. I have, over the years, had some good relationships with FEMA. We had a tornado through our district. I think they worked hard and closely and together with me. But there is one troubling matter that I have about today's hearing. From my years of experience, I was under the impression that FEMA was to have promulgated and had set in place a plan similar to that which we are now discussing, deliberating, and in fact ultimately will be deciding upon. Evidently, Madam Chairwoman, FEMA has never developed that plan. That, to me, is troubling.

So I think the authority is there for the agency to act. I think they should have by now. And I noticed that two of our more effective Congressmembers are here, and I know that we have votes coming up, so I will ask unanimous consent that my entire written statement be spread across the record. Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Traficant. We do have a vote on, which I know the vote is on final passage so it only is one vote instead of the two we thought we would have. So I believe if it is all right we will recess briefly to go vote and then come back and start so we won't have to stop in the middle of your testimony. So the subcommittee is recessed for the vote. Thank you. Page 11 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

[Recess.] Mrs. FOWLER. The subcommittee will come back to order. Our ranking member had to leave. This was our last vote for the day so at least we will not have any more interruptions. We have a couple of other members that will be joining us.

I would like to call the witnesses for the first panel. We are honored to have two Members of Congress testify before the subcommittee today, the Honorable Brian Bilbray of California and the Honorable Connie Morella of Maryland. The standard procedure of this subcommittee is to swear in all witnesses, so please stand and raise your right hand. [Witnesses sworn.]TESTIMONY OF HON. BRIAN BILBRAY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM CALIFORNIA; AND HON. CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM MARYLAND

Mrs. FOWLER. We will first hear testimony from Mr. Bilbray and then Mrs. Morella. Brian Bilbray represents the 14th District of California. A native of California, Mr. Bilbray has been an advocate for his district and the San Diego area for more than 20 years. But Mr. Bilbray has been most well known for his hands-on approach to protecting his constituents. Notably, and of particular relevance to this hearing, in 1993, he helped rescue people and animals during heavy flooding along the Tijuana River Valley. So we are honored to have you with us today, and Mr. Bilbray you may proceed.

Mr. BILBRAY. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I guess old lifeguards can be called back into service once in a while. That is a difference between old lifeguards and old politicians. I want to first thank you for holding this hearing, and I want to thank the full committee, Chairman Bud Shuster for allowing us to participate today. I also want to give credit to the ranking member, Mr. Traficant, for his encouragement on this issue. He is a hands-on type of person that all of us relate to. And with his background in public safety, I think he understands the unique situation here and the challenge and the opportunity we have. Page 12 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

I would also think that we need to thank Nancy Rigg and Chris Brewster for flying across the country to be able to bring the message from California. And let me say, Madam Chair, as a former lifeguard of San Diego County beaches, I happened to have served as the disaster preparedness chairman for 2.8 million people of that county a few years later and after the flooding we had in the 1990's, where actually Chris Brewster called me and asked me to get involved because I not only had some lifeguard background, but I knew the specific area, the Tiajuana River Valley where we were rescuing drowning illegal aliens, resident citizens, and also horses and dogs and cats.

And so when we talk about this too we are not just talking about saving human lives. We also are talking about our animal friends out there and companions that we want to rescue. At the same time, I have seen how the system works. I have had the experience of being asked to come here and work with the San Diego Lifeguard Service at Cabin John to be able to do programs in the Potomac River at night. And let me assure you that the capabilities of local communities to be able to respond and aid in the Federal responsibility under FEMA is there today and ready. The big challenge is will Washington rise to the occasion of drawing on these resources and expanding them.

It is clear to me, as an ex-chairman of emergency services and ex-lifeguard, but mostly as a representative of the people today, that there are great opportunities that are being overlooked. When I watched the Mississippi River rise and recently when I watched the flooding in North Carolina with the firsthand knowledge I have, it is just frustrating to see that the resources are not made available to save the lives of human beings, to avoid the type of deaths that we saw, and also protecting the wildlife and the domestic stock. FEMA is the agency to do this. FEMA is the agency that should have the responsibility and continues to have this responsibility. Page 13 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

I would like to say to you quite sincerely, I appreciate my colleague from Maryland joining with me on this because I think it is an example that this is not a West Coast or East Coast, it is not a South Coast or North Coast issue. This is an American issue. That if lifeguards from the Potomac, lifeguards from San Diego can show up in the Ohio River and rescue lives, we not only have a right but a responsibility to do that.

And I want to assure you of one thing. This is not a program that you just take people off the shelf and have them go do river rescue. It is unique training not just from the training point of view, but the mentality of the personnel involved, just ask the SEAL team instructors. The first thing they do is tie people up and throw them in the water and see if they panic. Not everyone out there is qualified or should be asked to perform rescues. You do not put a rescue vest on somebody and make them a lifeguard or a river rescue person.

And I think that is very important from a public safety point of view. Probably less than 20 percent of our population is suitable for this type of work. At the same time, you don't expect a firefighter to show up in full turnout gear and get in and around a water environment. And as a lifeguard, I cringe at the threat to their safety doing that.

But I leave you with this issue. Spring is coming. We are already seeing the snow melt in the West, causing flooding in California. The question that is going to be brought before us as representatives of the people is why we haven't taken action now to prepare FEMA to make sure that when the waters rise this spring, that there are lifeguards and rescue people there to save lives. Because if we don't, you know that every life lost we will be blamed either indirectly for our lack of action. So I ask you to join with us in calling on FEMA and everyone involved in this issue nationally to be able to draw resources so when somebody needs to be rescued, that lifeguard is there to pull them out of that river. Thank you very much.

Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Representative Bilbray. We will now hear from representative Morella. Mrs. Morella has represented the Eighth District of Maryland in Congress for 7 terms and serves as a very strong advocate for the constituents in her district. And one of her constituents is Steve Miller, who will be one of the witnesses on our second panel and who is co-author of the flood rescue proposal. So we are honored to have you with us today. Page 14 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

Mrs. MORELLA. Thank you Madam Chair. I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for having this hearing. I appreciate you doing that. Again, Chairman Shuster, who also believes that this was a good idea, members of the subcommittee and the fact that we do have this hearing, it is very important.

I also want to commend my colleague, Brian Bilbray from California, who has done such a great job in spearheading this very important project. I also want to comment on the fact that not only will Steve Miller be here, Steve is as you mentioned, the Cabin John Fire Department chief. He is a constituent, comes with great credentials, has always been most concerned about saving people and what fire rescue is all about. He is a deputy chief of the Cabin John Fire Department. He is a team leader and the chief of water rescue for Montgomery County River Rescue and Tactical Service Team. That means he is responsible for all the Potomac and moving water rescue in Montgomery County. He has been with Montgomery county for 30 years. Additionally he has been a career firefighter for the District of Columbia for 25 years, working the past 6 years with the rescue boats in the D.C. Fire Department. So he has tremendous credentials for this particular plan.

And also the San Diego lifeguard lieutenant, Marshall Parks, will be testifying. They have developed a compelling proposal that will save many lives in types of floods. I also was very pleasantly surprised to have President King Jordan here who is the President of Gallaudet. It almost sounds redundant to say ''President King.'' that is kind of a double epithet. And also a woman who has taken a tragedy and works very hard to develop it into an action plan to help others. I appreciate her commitment.

Aside from fires, flooding is the most common and widespread natural disaster, claiming the lives of 100 people each year in America. Most communities are susceptible to this danger during spring rains, heavy thunderstorms, and as the snow melts during a winter thaw. Tragically, 1 percent of those who are killed each year are emergency personnel attempting to rescue without the adequate training or equipment. Page 15 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

Unlike earthquakes, tornadoes or lightning strikes, flooding can be predicted. Last year, Hurricane Floyd was detected just off the Bahamas on a course likely to make an East Coast landfall. Moving at 14 miles per hour, Floyd left plenty of time for an accounting of flood response resources and an assessment of dangerous areas. A coordinated local and regional response could have been prepared. Colloquial alert teams should have been supplemented by resources from other localities in the region as the flooding continued in some areas. And as time elapsed, skilled rescue workers from across the country, acting on a Federal effort, could have provided relief and support for the overburdened local and regional personnel as the flood crested and subsided.

Unfortunately, no such plan was in place and while local response teams in North Carolina exhausted themselves over the week-long deluge, available resources in Maryland were never deployed.

Often, even within states, there is little coordination of flood response efforts. In June of 1996, heavy rains caused serious flooding in Frederick, Maryland, just north of my district. Rescue workers heroically struggled to assist flood victims but were overwhelmed by the elements. They simply lacked the skills and materials that were necessary for these situations. Fortunately, one volunteer firefighter knew that there were resources available in neighboring Montgomery County and took the initiative to call the Cabin John Fire Department for assistance. Having secured permission from the county governments, the flood response team was dispatched from my district to assist the people of Frederick.

Of the seven people rescued by the Cabin John team, three had been emergency personnel who had been put in danger attempting the rescue themselves. The bottom line, Madam Chair, FEMA needs to implement a plan to lay out the processes and procedures for responding to flood emergencies. Locally, emergency managers need to be educated to understand what conditions exist that may place their jurisdiction in danger of flood conditions at any time. Page 16 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

This information is already available from the U.S. Geological Survey. They need to understand what resources they have available and how to request further assistance when necessary. And at the State and regional level, there needs to be coordination so that resources can quickly be shifted to support areas of greater need, even across State borders.

Emergency personnel need to understand that there are people they can call when they are overwhelmed. And as flood conditions persist, there needs to be a plan for a Federal response to assist the continuing evacuation. And as the water subsides, the cleanup. The pieces by and large, are already in place. If there were a plan of action for a coordinated strategy of flood emergencies, the needless loss of life and property can be prevented.

I hope this subcommittee will move with that effort in mind. And I thank you, Madam Chair. Mrs. FOWLER. I thank you, Mrs. Morella. First before we go further, Mr. Terry, I would like to recognize the vice chairman of the subcommittee. Do you have anything? Thank you. I want to thank both the distinguished members for their testimony today and for their involvement in bringing this lifesaving proposal to our attention. I look forward to working with both of you in the future as we continue to examine this issue and move forward on it. Thank you so much for all of your work on it.

The Chair now calls the witnesses for the second panel. First, Nancy Rigg from Los Angeles, California. Mrs. Rigg is an author, documentary film producer, and flood safety education specialist. We will next hear from Deputy Chief Steve Miller from the Cabin John Park, Maryland, Volunteer Fire Department. Both of these witnesses are experts in the area of water rescue and water rescue education.

As with the first panel, we will swear in the witnesses, so if you would please stand and raise your right hand. Page 17 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

[Witnesses sworn.]TESTIMONY OF NANCY J. RIGG, FLOOD SAFETY EDUCATION SPECIALIST, LOS ANGELES, CA; AND STEPHEN F. MILLER, SR., DEPUTY FIRE/RESCUE CHIEF, CABIN JOHN PARK VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT, CABIN JOHN PARK, MD Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you. We ask that you summarize your testimony in 5 minutes, and without objection your full written statements will be included in the record. Ms. Rigg if you would proceed first.

Ms. RIGG. Madam Chairwoman, members of the committee, my name is Nancy Rigg.

Tomorrow, February 17th, marks the 20th anniversary of the death of my fiance, Earl Higgins, who lost his life when he attempted to rescue a 12-year-old boy who slipped into the flood-swollen Los Angeles River. The child survived by some miracle, but Earl was swept 30 miles downstream past rescuers who had neither the training nor equipment to perform an effective swift water or flood rescue. Earl's remains were not recovered until 9 months later.

This unfortunate event, which ended Earl's life at age 29 and changed my life forever, may at first appear to be a local problem, something that has little to do with the Federal Government. The local emergency response capability was simply inadequate. But Earl died during a major flood, where more than 25 other lives were also lost, and the event became a federally declared disaster. And this deadly scenario has repeated itself time and again, flood after flood after flood over the years. This is not just a local, State, or regional problem. This is a national tragedy.

Flooding is the leading cause of weather-related death nationwide. Deadly floods strike all regions of this country with a force that is unimaginable, killing hundreds of people every year and leaving emotional scars on survivors that can last a live time. You would think that with the specter of this kind of disaster hovering over every watershed in the United States, disaster managers, rescue agencies, and educators would be clamoring to prepare. But the prevailing attitude is, floods? We don't have that problem here. Page 18 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

Earl died in 1980, and despite scores of additional flood deaths, it took another 12 years before Los Angeles finally created the comprehensive multiagency swift water rescue program and public education programs that are now routinely saving lives and setting new standards of preparedness worldwide.

Those of us whose loved ones died before the swift water rescue teams were created may feel a sense of proud legacy, but the cost to us has been tremendous. How many families are now in mourning as a result of the floods from hurricane Floyd, which killed nearly 100 people, 51 in North Carolina alone? That storm sat off the East Coast for a week waving its huge red flag, 'I'm coming, get ready, get your flood rescue teams in place.' How is it then that everybody except the national weather service was caught by surprise when floods of biblical proportions were unleashed? The response was a discombobulated, reactive scramble by untrained rescuers and National Guard troops to 'do something,' instead of a proactive, precision strike, with highly skilled Federal, State, and local swift-water and flood rescue teams prepositioned, working together, and ready to go.

Hundreds of 911 calls went unanswered for 8 to 10 hours because no one was available to come help. Congressmembers Brian Bilbray and Constance Morella are the first national leaders to bring this tragedy into the public forum, and I wholeheartedly support their flood rescue team proposal. We need the kind of commitment for national flood preparedness that we have for terrorism preparedness, where Federal officials work with the states and local communities and they say, 'We don't want to hear that you have never had terrorist incidents here, so you don't need this training.'

A federally sponsored network of flood rescue teams could do more than save lives during major disasters. With their knowledge and expertise, they could work with states and local communities as Federal ambassadors of flood preparedness, where they could say, 'We have got to do something, it's not a matter of if, it is a matter of when you are going to get a major flood. You need to have a plan; you need to educate the public. Your rescue teams need flood rescue training and equipment, and your disaster managers need to know how to oversee a dynamic event where lives will be lost in an instant if you are not on top of things. We will provide you with our assistance now, as well as during a major disaster. Let's work together on this.' Page 19 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

The flood rescue team proposal should be implemented immediately. All it takes is leadership, organization, and a commitment to save lives. Please, support this proposal and take action now, because if you don't, flood rescue programs will continue to be built on the graves of people who could and should have been rescued. I admire what FEMA is doing in general, but why are we spending all of this time and effort and money on saving property and nothing on saving lives? Thank you.

Mrs. FOWLER. Chief Miller, you may proceed. Thank you.

Mr. MILLER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Every year flooding occurs in different areas of the United States. The cost in human life is high, up to 200 persons per year.

Mrs. FOWLER. Could you pull the mike a little closer? Mr. MILLER. Many of these floods are due to the heavy rains that accompany hurricanes. Most of these floods develop over a period of several days to a week. All floods have three stages: fast-rising water, cresting moving water, and receding water. Many rescues are made during the fast-rising stage. People become trapped in or near their automobiles attempting to drive through the high water. Persons who reside near waterways may be trapped in their homes as the foundations are weakened by strong currents and washed away.

This is perhaps the most critical stage of a flood. Most of the high-profile rescues are made at this time, and there is a great risk factor for rescuers. The United States Fire Administration has stated that a firefighter is four times—four times more likely to lose his or her life attempting a swift-water rescue than in an actual working structure fire.

During the cresting moving water stage, the majority of rescues or evacuations are made by rescue boats. These boats proceed through towns and neighborhoods removing people from the roof tops or other high points. It should be noted that during this stage the situation may rapidly deteriorate again, due to levee or dam failures or other natural causes. With almost no warning, the rescuers and evacuees may be confronted with fast moving water again. Page 20 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


In the final stages of a flood, the waters recede and the danger from hazardous and toxic materials is high. Dead livestock, fertilizers and other waste must be dealt with. The rescuers will begin to leave the area in favor of the cleanup crews and hazardous materials experts.

At this time there is no national coordination of personnel trained in flood rescue. Most flood rescues are currently attempted by local rescue groups and military helicopters with little or no training in flood response. These resources are rapidly overwhelmed and seldom predeployed. Often, trained swift water teams are not dispatched until after the fact. Regional coordination is almost nonexistent. During the most current major flooding as a result of Hurricane Floyd, many trained rescue teams within a reasonable response time sat idle while untrained Federal groups were sent to the flooded areas with little or no training and no water rescue equipment. The exception was a task force from Pennsylvania. This task force had received formal swift water rescue training, not as part of their USAR training program, and they brought their own water rescue equipment. They were successful in rescuing over 30 people.

Advocates for a change believe that with the Federal Government assistance, many lives could be saved annually. This assistance could come in three ways: public education, support for the development, training and equipping of local and regional flood rescue teams, and by enhancing the equipment and training of some of the current USAR teams.

Public education could be accomplished in the drivers education programs, with public service announcements, and by the development of a national education program similar to that developed by Nancy Rigg, which is currently in use in California.

Development of flood/swift-water rescue resources: it is felt that the most effective way to address this problem is to develop properly trained and equipped flood/swift-water rescue teams at local, state and national levels. How this would be accomplished is currently subject to a great deal of debate in the flood/swift-water rescue community. But regardless of how this is achieved, once it is in place, it must be effective, efficient, and properly managed. These resources must be deployed in a proactive, rather than a reactive, manner. Page 21 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


These teams must be highly motivated, well equipped and well trained. They will be asked to perform their mission in a dangerous and dynamic environment, entering flood-swollen creeks and rivers to effect contact rescues as well as operating boats for rescue and evacuation purposes. Careful thought should be given to the location of the state and national teams, for their training must be constant and in the environment in which they will operate.

Three and four day classes with yearly re-certs, while necessary, are quite frankly insufficient. These teams will, out of necessity, need to spend a great deal of their time in training in addition to their normal duties. It would be a disservice to both the rescuers and the public to select groups that are unable to devote the great amount of time necessary to enable them to function effectively and safely in this environment.

In conclusion, I firmly believe that most of the pieces of this puzzle are on the table. However, they need to be organized and joined together in order to resolve this national problem. Persons with the expertise to accomplish this task are readily available and more than willing to work with whatever agencies are assigned the task of mitigating this problem. I would like to thank Lieutenant Marshall Parks, who unfortunately could not be here with us today, of the San Diego Lifeguard Service. He was instrumental in helping to put this together. And the Honorable Congresswoman Morella and Congressman Bilbray, the members of this committee, and the entire swift-water rescue community for their assistance and guidance in this effort.

Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Chief Miller. I want to thank both of you for your testimony, and I have a few questions and I think Mr. Terry might have some also.

Ms. Rigg, as we know and I have been reading so much of this background, you were so instrumental in the development of California's water rescue response system, and as your testimony stated, it is important that this type of system go nationwide. Having heard the description of the proposal described by Chief Miller, what effect do you think that would have on the ability of local governments to respond to these flood disasters? Page 22 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

Ms. RIGG. I think that the most important thing is that the training and the planning be federally guided but also coordinated through the States and the local governments.

The first responders are going to be the ones more than likely who are first on scene. Those are the local teams. In many cases like in North Carolina, these are volunteer search and rescue teams who lack the means or the support to gear themselves up and get basic flood awareness training, so they know how to protect themselves. So the California system that we have now involves the eight task force teams that are deployed through the Office of Emergency Services and FEMA. We have added swift water rescue components to those so you have eight federally supported and state supported teams who then work with the local teams which get pretty well overwhelmed in the early stages when they are working 36 hours straight.

So I think it is a great model. We are still improving upon it to get people in place in time. There's this structure of Federal reaction as opposed to preparation. And that is what has got to be worked on. Because if you're going to do life saving, you've got to be there, and that is the biggest barrier to overcome, not come in after the fact.

Mrs. FOWLER. You have set up my next question. That is great. One of the questions that has been raised is, how would your proposal, Chief Miller, address concerns that a Federal water rescue team would be unable to promptly respond to most flooding?

Mr. MILLER. The team must be proactive, as I stated. They must be on the move just before the event occurs. And they will be utilized, there is no doubt, after a major flood. The initial team is always overwhelmed. There is always too much work for them and the time period that they must operate in is several days to a week, and we have to remember that those local rescue teams have the worry, the added burden of the fact that it's their neighborhood, their town. They are trying to get their lives back in shape too.

Mrs. FOWLER. Well, how would, under your proposal, how would the Federal response to Hurricane Floyd have been different, and could more lives have been saved if this proposal had been in effect? Page 23 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

Mr. MILLER. As Nancy put it, if you are going to save a life in a water rescue situation, in any water rescue situation, you have to be there to do it. You can't come in after the fact. If a plan would have been in place to coordinate the local groups to support them with the Federal teams, I think we could have saved quite a few lives in the state.

Mrs. FOWLER. And Ms. Rigg, I know in California you have the State office of Emergency Services Swift Water Rescue Advisory Committee. How effective has that been, and in your opinion would that type of advisory committee serve as a good role model for FEMA's efforts?

Ms. RIGG. Absolutely. I think it would be an excellent role model. Because what they have done is broken it down into working groups. Like the helicopter rescue group, so you get all the helicopter pilots trained; the ground based; the boat based. Everybody is working together. You have got multi-agency, law enforcement, firefighters and lifeguards all working together equally in this working group. They meet frequently. They have been developing standards. Hello. They have been developing the whole protocol of response.

That model could almost just be—if it could be replicated like a virus and spread nationwide—we'd be saving lives and I think floods would become the last cause of death in weather-related incidents. But it's an excellent program. As I said, it is still in development; but it is a great place to start rather than reinventing the wheel. Mrs. FOWLER. I want to ask Mr. Lee Terry from Nebraska, the vice chairman of the committee, any questions that you might have.

Mr. TERRY. Well, I do. First of all, we do have flooding in Nebraska. It's not just a coastal thing as Brian had mentioned. Ours fall into two categories. Every spring with the melt, of which now we are gripped in a drought, so this year we don't have to deal with it, but that is predictable. Part of the education every spring about the end of February, all the news stations start running about how when the flood waters start coming over the road, don't drive into it. Page 24 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

So I am curious what your research has shown about the number of the deaths that occur in this type of flooding is caused by—boy, I don't want to belittle anybody but people's ignorance. You know, you see a street then you see water over the street, you don't drive through it. That type of lack of education and boldness as opposed to other types. Whenever I see news clippings, it's usually somebody in a car that was foolish. So what is the role of education in this? And let's go with Ms. Rigg on this since that has been part of your fight.

Ms. RIGG. I think the role of education is critical. Especially if you don't have anybody there to rescue anybody. At least tell people, you know, let them know that if they get caught in flood waters that they are going to be on their own. But more to the point, Chief Miller was suggesting that this be integrated into drivers education. I grew up in Colorado, and one of the first things we learned was if the street was moving, don't go into it. I think something like 80 percent of all deaths in swift water are automobile-related.

Mr. TERRY. I didn't know it was that high. Ms. RIGG. Many people drive right around the barriers into the wash and get swept away. I think education is extremely important. But again we need Federal leadership to get this message out. I have from my studies, the program that I developed in California, we are one of the only States dealing with swift water, period. In any form. And we need more effort nationwide to educate everybody, not just people in California. So I think it is a critical area to be—to be included.

Mr. TERRY. The second type of flooding that occurs happened in my hometown this last August relying on—the weather folks predicted some heavy rains and did not predict a 10-inch rain in a matter of about 3 hours, which of course streams that were 1 foot deep became overwhelming and a couple of people did lose their lives, mostly because homes were close. Page 25 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


But nonetheless that is an occurrence where it was unpredicted. And it seems to me that type of situation, what we need to do is better train our first responders, our fire department. And you say that you have a model that has been developed in California, and Brian has referenced that to me when we were on the floor voting about half an hour ago. But what would you suggest, Mr. Miller and Ms. Rigg? But how do we take that to the Omaha, Nebraska, city government and fire department to implement this? Even though it's fairly rare, it occurs in Omaha, Nebraska, every few years.

Ms. RIGG. May I start?

Mr. MILLER. Absolutely.

Ms. RIGG. All fire departments train to fight high-rise fires, but high-rise fires may happen once in a decade. It doesn't mean they don't train regularly to handle high-rise fires. All airports that have a certain level of commercial traffic have an airport crash team that is always ready. I think flooding happens, on average, in every community more frequently than any one airport gets a plane crash, and yet there is this ever-ready state of readiness. So to me it is a matter of getting the issue of flood rescue to register on the radar. Period. We need firefighters to realize that this is for their own safety. As you know, 10 percent get killed every year in water-related incidents and four out of five deaths in technical rescues are water-related. So in that sense, the Omaha Fire Department, if it doesn't have a swift-water rescue team, would be well to get themselves up to the current standard.

And Chief Miller, you probably have a few things to add too.

Mr. MILLER. I believe that the best way to get that message out as far as the fire service is concerned, the managers of the fire departments have to be educated themselves. Many of them just don't want to recognize this as a problem. Perhaps programs through the National Fire Academy, United States Fire Administration would be helpful in this area. Page 26 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


It should be part of every firefighter's training. Every firefighter should be trained at least to an awareness level that we have a situation here and if we are not capable of handling it, we know exactly who to call and how to get them there. Mr. TERRY. You raise a good point. Let me follow up on that. We send a lot of our firefighters for training—in fact I have got a group of my Omaha firefighters that are going to be out here in training facilities next week or the week after. As part of this model, would you suggest that we identify maybe the San Diego lifeguards or your organization that we would identify swift water as a need for training and send them to you? Does this already exist?

Mr. MILLER. Well, actually we do joint training with the lifeguard river rescue team now. That is a one-to-one thing.

Certainly, we would be more than willing to train other groups. But it's going to be at a great expense to the people of Nebraska. Their programs should be developed at their State level, depending on the State. I am not very familiar with your system; all training might come under the office of the fire marshall, and he could dictate that they are required to have this training.

Different jurisdictions do it in different ways. Right now the University of Maryland MFRI has just become heavily involved in training swift water responders. So it could be done at the state level.

Ms. RIGG. May I add one thing? It's not just firefighters who need the training. Anyone who is working in a flood, whether it is a utility worker, a Department of Transportation worker, a police officer, they need the basic training to keep themselves from getting killed. In North Carolina, two Department of Transportation workers were killed when they were out working in the floods. So somebody needs to say—somebody needs to wake this country up and say, hello, water is killing people. That's really what it gets down to. Everybody would prefer to go to sleep on this issue until it happens to them and until it's their loved one. That's what I am begging you guys to do is say wake up and see what is actually killing people in this country every year. We've got to do something about this. Page 27 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Mr. TERRY. It is important. I am curious, Mr. Miller, what type of equipment—. Mr. MILLER. Sorry sir? Mr. TERRY. What type of equipment is necessary if I am going to focus on how do we get the first responders prepared, police and fire coordinated, what kind of equipment—my friend Mr. Bilbray from California had given me this vision of our firemen and their heavy fighting gear out trying to rescue someone in the water. So what would you suggest as equipment?

Mr. MILLER. There are national standards out there, standards of the industry for the types of PFDs, personal flotation devices, life jackets, wet suits for the lifeguards, dry suits. One of the problems in a flooding situation is you've got all this stuff in the water that doesn't really belong there, and you are being exposed to it. It's very hazardous to your health. In that situation, dry suits, helmets. The type of rescue ropes that you use, line throwing devices. All of this. It's not a real secret. The information's out there. The fire department managers or emergency managers of all types must be encouraged to make sure that their personnel receive this education. And where to get the equipment is not hard. That can be pointed out to them readily.

Mr. TERRY. We do a lot of training. Our fire department does a lot of training in the lake rescues. How is swift water different from lake or muddy flowing river?

Mr. MILLER. They are both wet and that's about the similarity.

Mr. TERRY. I will give you that one.

Mr. MILLER. Just a couple of inches of moving water, if it is moving fast enough, will knock you off your feet. It is a very dynamic environment and it changes constantly. It takes a great deal of expertise to learn how to operate a rescue boat in moving water as opposed to just getting in a boat and driving down a flat lake. Certainly if that's the area that your people are detecting, they do need to know how to effect those types of rescues. But a swift water rescue is entirely different. The level of expertise is much, much higher. Page 28 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2

San Diego lifeguard team, speaking with Marshall 2 years ago, and he was speaking with some of the emergency managers in Montgomery County. Marshall's team does cliff rescues, dive rescue, a very wide array of different types of rescues as well as surf rescues. And he stated in his personal opinion the most dangerous thing they train for is a swift water rescue.

Mr. TERRY. Thank you. I appreciate you being here.

Mrs. FOWLER. I just have a couple of other questions. Ms. Rigg, as you have examined flood and rescue readiness across the country, could you tell us approximately how many water rescue teams with formal training are there in this country?

Ms. RIGG. From my experience just communicating with a variety of teams nationwide, I can't give you, you know, a number like there's 2,000 rescuers or 20,000 rescuers. All I can say—what I can tell you more is that there aren't enough. California is coming around. Arizona has a pretty good program. Nevada has a pretty good program. Texas has a pretty good program. In North Carolina there are a lot of teams, but they were not in the eastern part of the state. They were all in the western part of the State.

More to the point it is a haphazard mishmash and not all of the teams are trained to the same level. You can have Firefighter Bob and his bass boat consider himself a rescue team for swift water, you know. So in terms—in terms of actually identifying resources, one of the things that needs to be done is to set the standard and identify who fits that pattern, because right now one of the problems is that the standard is so flexible and so amorphous that you don't necessarily have—I couldn't say that Omaha has a great swift water rescue program. In fact, I would doubt that they do. My dad was born in Omaha, so I like Omaha. But what I'm saying is that it is a mind-set that is missing, not just rescue teams. You have clusters in the West and clusters in the East and then some in the Midwest, a little bit here and there. But it is a mishmash. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. Page 29 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Mrs. FOWLER. No, but that helps us to see, because I think that is one of the problems that we need to be aware of. Chief Miller, we heard that a number of first responder rescuers die each year attempting water rescues. Are there any characteristics which cut across all of these tragedies as far as those that die, the rescuers?

Mr. MILLER. Two, actually. A lack of understanding of moving water and a lack of training to deal with that. As a firefighter for 30 years, the firefighter's mentality is that they called us, we are here and we are going to do something. It might not be the right thing to do, but we are going to do something. We are not going to stand here and have the press film us doing nothing. And that's what is killing rescuers.

Mrs. FOWLER. Well, if adopted, would your proposal solve the problems that you and Ms. Rigg have identified today if we were able to get this moving?

Mr. MILLER. If adopted on a national basis? Obviously we are not going to save every life. But I think you would see a tremendous reduction in the number of lives lost in the United States.

Mrs. FOWLER. Well, as a Member from Florida, we are very familiar in Florida with the problems from hurricanes and other floodings. We have a river that runs right through my city which, depending on the rains, if it is flooded or not. And I want to thank both of you for your bringing this to our attention and helping us to elevate it to national attention because that is what it takes to get movement on these things is to have people like yourself who spent so long working on this to help us educate people on the national level as to what the problem is and that there are solutions within reach of that.

And, Ms. Rigg, I think the work you have done for the past 20 years and the lives that you have saved are the most meaningful memorial that Earl could ever have. So thank you for all that you have done. We appreciate it. Thank you both. Page 30 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2
Ms. RIGG. Thank you. Mrs. FOWLER. The Chair would now call the witness for the third panel, Mr. Bruce Baughman. Mr. Baughman is from the Federal Emergency Management Agency. He holds the position of director, operations and planning division in the response and recovery directorate. Mr. Baughman as you know it is the standard procedure of this subcommittee to swear in all witnesses. If you would stand and raise your right hand.

[Witness sworn.]TESTIMONY OF BRUCE P. BAUGHMAN, DIRECTOR, OPERATIONS AND PLANNING DIVISION, RESPONSE AND RECOVERY DIRECTORATE, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, WASHINGTON, D.C.

Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you. Please be seated.

Mr. BAUGHMAN. Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee to discuss swift water rescue preparedness and response.

As has been stated before, a large percentage of the Nation's disasters are floods. The loss in such disasters has been considerable. In 1999 alone, 68 lives were lost to floods. Since 1990, fatalities have averaged 99 per year. Clearly there is a need to reduce loss of life from floods.

Again, as has already been stated, response to most flood rescue situations is handled by State and local governments which are generally well suited to respond rapidly for calls for assistance. However, flash flooding, which occurs with little or no warning, is among the most deadly and devastating of floods. Such states as California, Maryland, Texas and a number of communities have developed highly trained and well-equipped water rescue teams. Page 31 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


In order to make the most efficient and cost-effective use of rescue resources, FEMA believes primary reliance should be placed on existing intrastate and interstate mutual aid mechanisms rather than developing a new capability at the Federal level. One of the most promising interstate mutual aid mechanisms is an Emergency Management Assistance Compact, or EMAC. Membership in EMAC provides states with access to more resources and increases their ability to respond to major disasters and emergencies quicker. To date, 29 States have adopted EMAC.

However, the Nation is in need of a uniform standard for swift water rescue resources which would provide State and local emergency management officials with the assurance that responding units meet some minimum level of capability. And I think that this was stated already by Congressman Bilbray that it takes specialized training in swift water rescue.

Following Hurricane Floyd, at least seven EMAC states offered swift water assistance to North Carolina. Unfortunately, the State didn't know what to expect in terms of the resources being offered or their expertise in swift water rescue. The State of California has developed a draft-typing scheme that conforms to the incident command system standard. The scheme identifies capabilities, numbers of personnel, and transportation assets for each type of resource. This typing scheme should be adopted at the national level.

We believe that the National Emergency Management Association, or NEMA, as the implementer of EMAC could be an appropriate organization to coordinate this task. NEMA, which is made up of the Nation's state emergency management directors, and serves as a repository for other interstate mutual aid agreements, can also facilitate assistance to non-EMAC states during disasters. A number of individuals have advocated the creation of a national system of swift water rescue resources modeled after FEMA's National Urban Search and Rescue Response System. The swift water community appears to be divided about the appropriate model for this national system.

Our view is that the best use of the urban search and rescue model is to supplement State and local resources, not to replace them. FEMA could supplement State and local mutual aid efforts by deploying swift water rescue teams from within the departments that sponsor our existing Urban Search and Rescue Task Forces. With minimal additional resources, FEMA could use existing mechanisms to activate such teams when needed to supplement EMAC or other mutual aid resources or to provide resources when mutual aid resources are not available. Page 32 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


A number of departments participating in the Urban Search and Rescue Program have built swift water capabilities. The State of California has developed a water rescue component within each of its eight Urban Search and Rescue Task Forces.

Our goal would be to assess the existing capabilities within those departments that participate in our program that meet that typing standard. This approach would require only modest support to assess compliance with the adopted standards and to amend our current regulations and agreements to accommodate this new mission.

Development of any national program should take full advantage of existing rescue capability. In developing the Urban Search and Rescue Program, FEMA has expended over $21 million in Federal funds. The time to build a new system would be significant. We think that relying on existing mechanisms to the greatest extent possible would reduce both time required to save lives and the cost in responding.

In summary, the most significant improvement in the Nation's swift water rescue posture and corresponding decrease in number of lives lost could be accomplished through the following measures: .

First, that a consensus national standard for swift water rescue resources be adopted by an organization such as NEMA by exploring what already exists, such as the California model.

Second, that State and local governments maximize use of EMAC or other mutual aid agreements to supplement their existing water rescue capabilities.

And third, that FEMA assess existing water rescue capability within the departments that participate in its Urban Search and Rescue response system and make necessary policy, procedural and regulatory adjustments to enable those resources to supplement State and local government efforts. Before I conclude, Madam Chairman, I would like to, on behalf of Director Witt, thank you for your support for the mitigation program and for your work on the proposed changes to the Stafford Act. This concludes my comments. Page 33 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Baughman. I have a few questions, and I think Mr. Terry had to leave. Well, I understand that the President's budget request for fiscal year 2001 includes $3.825 million in antiterrorism funding to expand the urban search and rescue teams, but does not include any funding for flood rescue expertise. Is that correct?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. That is correct. That comes through—the counterterrorism appropriation that is directed primarily to outfit six of our existing task forces so that they are ready to respond to a weapon of mass destruction event.

Mrs. FOWLER. Since their inception, how many times has FEMA deployed the urban search and rescue teams?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. I think approximately 17 or 18 times we have deployed them.

Mrs. FOWLER. Is that average? Per year? How often?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. An average of about three times per year.

Mrs. FOWLER. Are they deployed solely for collapsed buildings?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. They are designed for collapsed structural buildings. We do predeploy and are proactive, contrary to popular belief. Sometimes, prior to a hurricane, FEMA does predeploy two Urban Search and Rescue Task Forces, several disaster medical units, and a number of other resources, teams, and commodities so that they are prestaged in potentially affected states.

In the past, the primary need on the part of State and local government for rescue resources has been for collapsed structures, not for water rescue. Very seldom, other than in North Carolina this year, have we been asked for that type of resource.

Mrs. FOWLER. So California hadn't asked you before?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. No, they have not. During the last floods in California, we did in fact use our system to deploy some resources to supplement their overhead capability in that particular disaster. Page 34 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Mrs. FOWLER. I would like to refer you to an enlarged exhibit over here. This is a copy of a letter that was sent by Director Witt to Nancy Rigg that was dated October 26, 1993. And I would like to enter the copy of the letter in the record. [The information follows:] [insert here]

Mrs. FOWLER. And a portion of that letter—and I believe you have seen this—reads as follows, and I quote: ''I support swift water rescue and flood safety education and will instruct my staff to identify ways that FEMA may become involved in encouraging such education programs and disseminating education materials.''.

Mr. Baughman, to your knowledge was this directive ever made; and if so, what was done to implement it?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. To my knowledge, no, it has not. I think certainly Director Witt would agree. I think that unfortunately, with time and other pressing matters we have not had the ability to follow through, and I think that this has raised the need to do that.

Mrs. FOWLER. So in your opinion then, you think FEMA will keep the commitment that was made in 1993?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. Yes.

Mrs. FOWLER. But no request for funding for this type of commitment was made for the fiscal 2001 budget; is that correct?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. That's correct. Again, the most appropriate place within FEMA for this type of awareness would probably be the U.S. Fire Administration, and you know, we have a new Administrator. We also have a new Chief Operating Officer. I think once we have raised this to their level, we can accomplish it through there. Page 35 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


For what I have proposed, it will take some additional resources to accomplish.

Mrs. FOWLER. Returning back to your testimony, if as you propose FEMA makes the necessary procedure and regulatory adjustments to be able to provide water rescue resources as needed, would FEMA adopt its own standards or would it adopt the NEMA State standards?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. There is an NFPA standard 1670 that has been proposed. I think it needs work. I think what we would propose to do is set criteria for all our teams, based upon the California typing. I think it should be up to our U.S. Fire Administration working with the NFPA to come up with a nationwide standard, and we certainly would support that nationwide standard. Then you could use that to train personnel and equip water rescue units.

Mrs. FOWLER. If you would adopt whatever standards that NEMA would develop, then that would make your implementation time line dependent on their actions. So what measure would FEMA take to ensure a prompt development and implementation of standards?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. Here is what we would do and we discussed this earlier. It would take us probably 60 to 90 day to develop some draft procedures. We could use that immediately to start seeing who, within our Task Forces, already has that capability. We wouldn't have to wait until the standards are final to actually start developing that capability.

And as has been pointed out before, California already has eight teams that are really ready to go right now.

Mrs. FOWLER. Now, I want to ask you a question, because FEMA is the coordinating agency for response to major disasters. So since they are, why shouldn't FEMA be the coordinating agency for development of a water rescue-typing standard?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. It's primarily because typing of these types of resources really are the responsibility of State and local government. We don't normally get into telling State and local governments what a strike team should look like, or what a water rescue team should look like. Normally, that is done at the State and local level. Again, the NFPA has worked with the fire community to set those kinds of standards. We are proposing this particular water rescue capability that is normally in common practice among the fire community. But again I think we can play a facilitating role in making this happen. Page 36 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Mrs. FOWLER. Well, but you get into the example where if you are relying on EMAC on that compact to supplement existing water resource capabilities and California is not a participating member of EMAC. So then that would leave the California teams, which are right now probably the best in the country, off the list of available resources. So wouldn't FEMA's organizational involvement solve that type of problem?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. No, ma'am, it wouldn't, because they are already a member of our system. If the State asked, we could use our system to respond. What we need EMAC to do is, in addition to the 27 departments that participate in our program, there are probably hundreds of other jurisdictions out there that have a water resource capability. What we are saying is EMAC should serve as the facilitator to help mobilize those resources when requested by a state in need.

And, again, if EMAC can't provide it, we can provide it through our system. So it is really a two-tiered approach.

Mrs. FOWLER. If you develop standards that differed from those of NEMA, then would the resources be able to work together?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. We would not—we would work hand in hand with NEMA, and have in EMAC for the last 5 years, and I don't see that happening.

Mrs. FOWLER. I want to ask you another thing. To your knowledge, does the Emergency Management Institute, which is run by FEMA, currently offer any classes that deal with water rescue?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. No it does not.

Mrs. FOWLER. Well, I hope that's going to be something that's reviewed also, because again I would think that institute would be another place where we could be educating and training people. So we need to do that.

I have got several other questions that I'm going to want to submit for the record because I know we've got limited time. I have two more to ask you now and then—could you just describe for me FEMA's present water rescue capabilities? Page 37 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Mr. BAUGHMAN. We have none.

Mrs. FOWLER. You have none.

Mr. BAUGHMAN. We have none.

Mrs. FOWLER. I know you have sent out a questionnaire just this past month to your 27 US&R task forces to determine what capabilities they might have. What is your time frame on getting a response back?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. Again, one of the things is the need for additional resources to carry that out. Right now I have got a relatively small staff that is engaged full-time in implementing our Urban Search and Rescue Program. We have basically 5,000 fire personnel and emergency medical personnel in that system, and we can't just ignore them while we deal with water rescue. So we have a need to get additional resources before we can do that.

However, I think that the questionnaire and some of the work on that could be done sometime within the next 90 to 120 days.

Mrs. FOWLER. And what is your estimated cost of implementing?

Mr. BAUGHMAN. If we were to implement what I see our role would be, the cost would be a couple of personnel, staff, and probably less than $500,000 in travel and miscellaneous funding.

Mrs. FOWLER. Well, then I would like to thank each of our witnesses for their testimony, and I do have some additional questions for FEMA, which I will submit in writing. And will look forward to a written response that we will make part of the record. We have heard the tragic and compelling stories of Earl Higgins and Adam Bischoff; and sadly, as we have noted today, there are hundreds of similar stories that could be told.

And while this hearing is concluded, the danger has not. Flooding can victimize virtually every community in the United States. And as we have heard, many of these communities are ill-prepared to deal with these impending dangers. What is most disturbing, though, is that the urban search and rescue teams that FEMA has repeatedly deployed to assist these communities are also ill-prepared. They lack the equipment and the training to adequately protect even themselves, much less the public, for swift water rescue. Page 38 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2


Due to the efforts of people like Congressman Bilbray and Congresswoman Morella and the other witnesses we have heard from today, we may be able to reduce the risk that flooding poses to the public and to the rescuers themselves. These dangers are also detailed in an upcoming program that was produced for the Discovery Channel. I had an opportunity to review the program earlier this week, and it will feature Nancy Rigg and will air on the Discovery Channel on Wednesday, March 1st at 9 p.m. I encourage anyone that's interested in this subject to watch this compelling program. I watched it the other night, and it's very well done and very educational. Again, I want to thank Ms. Rigg for her involvement in this because it's something that I want to make sure that a lot of people watch. After this hearing, I'm going to be working with Mr. Traficant to request that FEMA prepare for this subcommittee a needs assessment detailing their procedures and the resources that you will need to adopt an adequate water rescue capability. And it's my hope and expectation that FEMA will work with the subcommittee and all interested parties to develop the proper skills and techniques to identify the necessary equipment, and prepare the needed operational guidelines so that the next time flood waters rise, we will be able to do more than just stand on the banks and watch people drown. So, again, I want to thank the people who have worked on this today. We do continue to keep working because this is of critical importance to the people of this country, and we look forward to working with FEMA and continue to work with Ms. Rigg and Chief Miller and the individuals who have been so active in this. If there are no other questions or comments. Mr. Bilbray, do you have anything further? Mr. BILBRAY. Madam Chair I would just like to thank you again and let me—I appreciate the fact that you recognize the urgency we brought forward; and as somebody who has decided to return to private life, we hope that when the river rises in Jacksonville as a civilian, you will know that the river rescue people will be there to save you if you need it. Page 39 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 2 Of 2
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you. Thank you again. The meeting of the subcommittee is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 3:36 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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